A big break.
Welcome to the Supreme Leadership podcast where we interview leaders who have been successful for almost a quarter of a century. I’m Alinka Rutkowska, CEO of Leaders Press and today I’m excited because we’re taking to David Dangle, CEO of Joan Rivers Worldwide.
My colleague Jill has been a fan of Joan Rivers and David Dangle for quite some time and she’s the one running this interview, which is fascinating.
David shares how mentorship and a big break shaped his career and how he wants to give back now that his dreams came true.
If you’re a leader with 25 years in business and would like to be featured on the show, email me at firstname.lastname@example.org and put “Supreme Leadership Podcast” in the subject line.
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JIll:Okay. So let's jump right in. So you had already had a successful career as a costume designer with your three Emmys and all that. By the time you started working with Joan. So can you share with us how your career or your life was improved under her mentorship?
David:Oh, absolutely. Well the ... just off the top of my head, I'm going to be very candid through this entire interview, but just the top of my head, it provided me with a very steady job, which I don't know if you know anybody that works in film or in television, but shows close.
David:The season is over. You're not picked up until next fall. You know, that kind of thing happened a lot. And I'm a very kind of I would say driven. I'm very ... I love hard work. I love being focused. I love, you know, kind of really pushing ahead and my frustration, and I had a lovely, very successful career as a designer, but it's like go, go, go, go, go and then have three months off while you wait for the next project to start up, or work on a film for nine months and then have three months with again waiting for that next thing to come in.
David:So, so from the top level it would be, gosh, I now have this 52 week a year, seven days a week sometimes, commitment allowing me to ... kind of giving me the opportunity to shift my focus to doing something very different from what I did. And that would be building a business, building a brand really from the ground up, which is an extraordinary opportunity on any level to say, "Okay, we're going to start a business, let's go."
David:And you're doing it with again, equally driven, equally loving of hard work, kind of famous person who had the same passion I did. And you know, the two of us, just get out of our way. So that was one part of it that I would say really changed, and certainly improved. I ... you know, all of a sudden I'm traveling the world with Joan Rivers and we're creating beautiful products and we're building this incredibly strong brand in a new medium, in you know, we've kind of take home shopping for granted now.
David:But in 1990 when we started this company, nobody really knew what it was. It was really kind of a really bold step for Joan and for me to take in a medium that not a lot of people were familiar with.
David:So that was really kind of a ... for me that was kind of probably the biggest leap was, "Hey, let's try it. You know, let's believe in it." And Joan beliefs in it from the very day one. And you know, I think a lot of people give her credit for really putting some of this home shopping experience on the map.
JIll:Oh yes. What were the first products that you brought to QVC?
David:The very first product. Well, you know, it's funny because our original business was not going to be necessarily focused on fashion. The original thought that Joan had was to enter into the beauty business, enter into the skin care and color cosmetics, because again she felt very strongly about that. And I will give QVC credit for saying, "Hmm, we can't see that, that's not a white space for us." We see an opportunity for our fashion brands, which are ... kind of that's where I think the opportunity lies. So it kind of in a weird way was QVC saying, "No, don't do that, do this." And it clicked instantly because we both had a passion for ... obviously for fashion and for jewelry and all that kind of thing. So it was kind of that light bulb goes off moment where you say, "Oh yeah, that's a better fit, and that's something we will get very excited about."
David:So very first thing we brought to QVC was a capsule collection of fashion jewelry. The very first item was a little bee pin, and it was based on a pin that Joan had that her husband had made for her. And you know, there was a whole sort of history behind it. She felt very much it was a kind of sample for her of kind of who she was in life and her kind of breaking barriers and achieving the impossible. And it was a situation that I don't think happens very often anymore, but we sold everything to the wall and we literally found ourselves in a position where we didn't have enough ... any inventory to sell.
David:It wasn't one of those, okay, now we need to regroup and take this much more seriously, and start making a lot of jewelry. So it was a ... I wish I could say we struggled and we had a few years there while we kind of found our way, but it really was kind of a magic moment where right out of the box we knew we had something very powerful, very powerful indeed.
JIll:I remember back in ... I don't even know when it started watching QVC with the eggs.
David:Yes. Yes. That was a few years. And that was our Faberge eggs. The really kind of drove the brand and to this day how I drive the brand was really what are we passionate about? What did Joan love? And she was a collector of fine art, and a collector of antique furniture, and a collector of Russian Faberge objects and jewelry. And a collection that had been exhibited at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, a collection that had gone to Saint Petersburg with the famous Faberge exhibit. So she had that authority. So, that's where the eggs came in. It was like, you know, can we ... how do we take what Joan is so in love with and then introduce that to our customer. And again, it was a natural fit, just a... to this day we do a lot of Faberge inspired pieces. Because again, she mentored me into this world of beautiful furniture and fine art, and again, the world of Faberge and Russian art, which is so beautiful.
David:You're going to hear some ... so we live on ... where our office is on a very busy street in Manhattan, so when you hear the fire engines, don't get scared. Crazy.
JIll:Because of that New York City flavor in the background.
David:It does ... that flavor, it would be one word I would use, and other times it's just chaos. But we're literally smack in the middle of the fashion district. So it's a fantastic location for the creativity, but it's also very noisy.
JIll:How long are you in New York, for now?
David:I'm, you know, I toggle back and forth because I'm the on air personality for the brand now at QVC, and they're based in Pennsylvania. So, I'm in Pennsylvania probably three or four days a week, New York three or four days a week, depending on how the week plays out. Depending on my needs at QVC and meetings we would have there and on air presentations and that kind of thing. But I would say it's kind of split down the middle at this point, I would say.
JIll:And that house in Pennsylvania-
David:Have you been on my Instagram account?
David:That's fine. Well, you know, it's funny, because I ... we were probably about 15 years into our business at QVC and you know, in order to ... With a lot of businesses, in order to really be effective and grow a business, you really have to be hands on. And I was commuting back and forth from New York. I was occasionally staying at a hotel down there. But I think that ... I think we kind of came to the realization that if we're going to really kind of blow that business up, I'm going to need to be there more often. So I built that crazy modern house in Pennsylvania, which the first time Joan saw it, she was like, "Oh, okay."
David:Because it wasn't necessarily her taste in a home, but she understood. She totally understood. You know, it's just funny.
JIll:Okay. So going back to before Joan, have there been others in your past who served as a mentor to you?
David:Very much so. And I, when I saw that question, I started thinking and I thought I had some fantastic people that I ... that kind of took me under their wing and really kind of nurtured and mentored me. In my early days, it was theater designers, kind of more seasoned, very successful further along into their careers. And I worked for some of the greats on Broadway and in film, and you know, that process of ... I mean we say mentoring, but really what I was probably doing was slave labor. But what I was doing was, was learning and paying my dues. So yes, I worked with some of the top Broadway designers. I worked for some very, very major film art directors and that sort of thing.
David:At that stage of my career, and then when I started really working mostly in television, I had a very strong mentor who became a very close friend who was a big producer with Procter & Gamble, and ultimately with CBS television. And she kind of gave me one of my first big breaks. And again, it's a leap to say, "Gee, you've never done this before, but I want to hire you to do it." So, I very often look back and I think my whole career really is owed to some of the early people in my life who had faith in me, who saw something and said, "Come on board." And so that's why I think as someone that can mentor someone today, I want to give that back. I want to return that because I think that you can really kind of guide someone's life in a way when you really kind of give them the right direction and the right nurturing and mentoring. So I think I was very fortunate.
JIll:Yes, it can be life changing. I've had that happen in my own life, and similar kind of circumstances to yours. And I don't think that happens much anymore, where people see something in you-
JIll:... and give you a chance.
JIll:Now it's more-
JIll:... what's your degree? How many years experience do you have? Things like that.
David:Yeah. I couldn't agree more. And when I think of the two individuals before I met Joan who would be the ultimate mentor, but two individuals who took a chance, I mean it wasn't, "Well, gee, you've got the experience we need and you've got the chops and you've been doing it long time, come on board." It was really more of a, "Let's see how this works out." And you know, and that will always feedback to my work ethic. That will, you know, come back to ... I believed very strongly in paying my dues when I was a young designer. My whole life I think had something I probably got from my dad, but hard work is something that I'm very drawn to. I want to work hard, and some people don't, which is okay, but I think that you know, that will be one of the keys to your success.
David:Are you willing to get in there and pay your dues? You know, and I, if we had hours to talk, I would tell you stories about working for a designer and washing his dishes and cleaning is bathroom. But he was very, very famous and he was very, very generous in his ability to help me. And if that meant cleaning up his dirty dishes before we started our day, you'd do what you got to do.
David:And that's what I always call paying your dues, maybe not be what you thought you went to school for, but it's kind of part of the ... part of what you do.
JIll:Exactly. And people don't do that anymore.
David:I don't feel it. Yeah, I agree. I agree. Well, I sometimes see that in the interview process where ... I always like to ask, you know what ... do you have any questions that you have? You know, and I get more and more, "What's the ... what are the benefits? What's the [inaudible 00:13:23] like, what's the ... and I'm kind of like, "Well, we haven't really talked about the shop yet, but you already know ... want to know what the dessert is going to be." You know, it's very interesting and that's a ... I hate to be that old, you know, in my day, but I do think that I did pay my dues, and I don't know if people see that as part of the equation anymore, you know?
JIll:Or maybe we're just sounding like our parents because I believe-
JIll:We're about the same age, and I started [crosstalk 00:13:51].
David:I think you might be right. Maybe I'm sounding like my dad.
JIll:Do I sound like my dad?
David:That's funny. That is very funny. But it is, you know, listen, it's all changed. The business community has changed. The gauges of success have changed and how we do business continues to change daily. So it's a ... it is a different sort of approach. And you know, maybe the School of Hard Knocks doesn't necessarily apply so much anymore. I don't know. Who knows? Who knows?
JIll:I've always said, I have a doctorate from this School of Hard Knocks.
David:I have used that line more than I would say, you know, Joan and I got our PhDs in hard work.
David:It's like you get in there and do the work. Funny.
JIll:Yes. So how did you get into fashion?
David:Well, you know, it ... the ... as a designer, as an art director and a costume designer, that encompasses a lot of different background and you might be working on a soap opera that is set in modern day and one show that I was part of the team that put together this other show was set in the fashion industry. So I needed to know about that world. So that was definitely piquing my interest in fashion. But really what turned me to this business was meeting Joan, and the two of us really kind of taking a deep dive into owning a fashion brand.
David:And that is a very different thing than being a designer for film or for television. But it does involve interest in fashion, interest in clothes, interest in beauty products, interest in accessories. And you know, Joan, as you know from Fashion Police, as you know from her lifetime of being on the international best dressed list and being a woman of great style. She had that passion already. I'll never forget the day I met her, she was living at the old ... Oh God, what was the hotel? It's gone now, up on Madison Avenue while her apartment was being renovated and she was moving to New York, and it was early, early. They only time she had to interview me was Sunday morning at 8:00 AM, which was fine by me, because I was meeting this famous lady and you know, there was going to be a potential job and she opened the door and she was wearing a little Saint John's suit, perfect Chanel shoes, her hair was done, her makeup was done. And I expected to see a celebrity in a bathrobe you know, before the hair and makeup people came over.
JIll:Curlers in her hair.
David:Exactly. And she ... and so she loved being part of that world, and really inspired me to be a part of that world. So when you're, you know, when you're in a business that makes women happy for example, if you're in a business where people put on things and they feel good, and you know that's inspiring. And it really to me launched the two of us really on this path to kind of loving fashion, loving the industry, loving creating, and also, you know, being business people, which I think Joan had that in her DNA. She was a smart, smart business woman.
JIll:How about books? Have there been books that you've read that have had an influence on your life or your career?
David:For sure. I mean, I hate to keep coming back to our girl, but you know, Joan wrote a very, very successful book called Enter Talking, which I don't know if you've ever read-
JIll:Yes, yes I did.
David:... but it was just fantastic. It was really her kind of talking about how she became Joan Rivers and the hard work that she put in and the dues that she paid. And the struggles that she went through. I read the book before I met her, and then we started working together and I went back and read it again. And it really is ... it's not a traditional success in business kind of a book. It's not a traditional how to become a better manager or anything like that. It really is a life story, but it is about how to push your life forward and how to be successful if you kind of read between the lines. So that's a book that I very often give to friends to read. And then the other one, it's going to sound so corny Jill, but I really think Dale Carnegie had something going with How to Win Friends and Influence People.
David:I really do. I haven't read it probably in 15 years, but it's ... there's a reason it's what it is, and there's a message there. There's a message there that's very, very timeless and very much about kind of how to have a life that you feel good about and how to be successful.
David:So I'll use Joan and Dale Carnegie in the same sentence, which is pretty remarkable. But they're both ... they both had very strong messages for me, and I think that people that are focused and clear in their path like Joan was, they have a lot to teach just by example, you know.
JIll:Exactly. So you mentioned before, have you served as a mentor yourself?
David:I have. My approach to that has ... it's been very personal in a way. But I think my approach to mentoring would be more of a hands on experience, can I help? And I've had the experience twice now in the last probably five, six, seven years. Can I help a person who I see has enormous potential, who is in a situation where they don't necessarily are ... they're not going to be able to shine and they're not going to be able to thrive. Can I help them away from that? And there's a young guy in Pennsylvania. I met him through his parents, or his uncle and his aunt, who really needed some direction, needed guidance into how to get out of where he was into where he wanted to be, when it was just really what mentoring is.
David:And I'm very proud to say that I helped him pick out his college. I helped him apply to college. I had him in my office here as a summer intern for two summers in a row. And this kid, I can't call him a kid, but he's finishing college now, but he has a full time job with a very, very, very big fashion house here in New York. They hired him from the internship that he did last summer. So he's ... hasn't graduated college and he's already on his career path. So to me that's like a ... I took somebody who knows where he would have ended up, but I could step in and say, "There's a fantastic school in New York called LIM, it's for the business of fashion. You need to apply there. You need to talk to them, you need to talk to FIT, you need to be ..." Helping somebody, or mentoring somebody with their ... with really with their career path from high school.
David:When I met this kid he was in high school and he now is going to work. He is working for a ... it's a major, at Calvin Klein, but a major company that people would kill to be working for. You know, mentoring on that level is important to me. I think that, you know, I clearly have mentored employees here up through the years into successful strong management positions, but really taking somebody who kind of didn't know what to do to get to his goals, was a very rewarding experience for me in terms of mentoring. So that's probably my approach. Not so much of a corporate level or a super high business level, but really more of a how can I help someone find their path that ... which was how I was mentored really.
JIll:Right. You're paying it forward from washing the dishes for that guy.
David:Exactly right. Well that's very true. I mean it is a paying it forward. It's like a very strong, very successful people took time to help me understand the business, understand how it works, taught me so much. And now you ... yeah, you can, you can pay it forward in that same way. And that I find enormously rewarding. And I also find part of the mentoring process is having a very good company culture. We have a program that Joan and I put in place many years ago of paying for education for our employees. So our current controller is a CPA now because we as a company paid for her education to become a CPA.
David:That's a fantastic thing to think about. You can use the funds you have to help others get a little further along, and then they can stay and be fantastic employees at the same time. You know? So that's ... hopefully that's something that companies do, but it's ... that's a way that I look at sometimes like, "Hey, if you want to go out and get your masters, we'll pay for it. If you want to go out and get training in digital technology, we'll pay for it." You'll be a better employee for me. But you'll take those skills for the rest of your career.
David:Really, really important to me. Right.
JIll:It's a win-win for everybody.
David:Absolutely. There's no ... investing in your employees, investing in your company culture will pay back tenfold. And it sounds corny and it sounds trite, but it's absolutely true. It's 100% true. And I've been in both places, so I know. You know, a crummy place to work where you don't feel valued, you don't give the performance that you would in a place where you're allowed to really feel celebrated.
JIll:Right. So what's the area you feel most executives like yourself, whether it's in fashion, the arts, or business in general, need mentoring in themselves?
David:Oh, that's interesting. Well, I thought of ... I think about that a lot and I know one thing is company culture. I think that you know, you're going to set the tone at the top and you're going to dictate how your employees are treated, and you're going to dictate how the employee experience happens. So that's something that I would think that you don't just drop into the CEO position and know how to create a warm environment where people feel valued and they feel safe. So that's something that where mentoring I think would come in. The other, and this is going to sound so silly, but you know, really hiring the right mix of people, that's a hard thing to do. And I got some very, very good advice from a consultant who worked with us for many years about how you hire, who you hire, how you put the mix together. And it's not just about this guy looks great on paper, let's hire him-
David:... but how do they fit. How do they fit? Because we're all going to spend eight, nine hours together every day. We better all figure out how we're going to do that. And that's something that I kind of learned the hard way in terms of it's tough, it's tough to find you know, at one point we were 28 employees and just to get 28 people that can stand to be in the same room together, it's a challenge, let alone work that hard together and really work at ... and you know, in some very challenging situations. So that would be something I think in terms of the hiring in your company. And the other would be, I wish someone had said to me 25 years ago, go take 10 courses in law. Go get a rough ... don't get your legal to good. Don't get the lawyers to good.
David:Don't, you know, you don't have to be an attorney, but get a rudimentary knowledge of how law works, how the legal side of business works, because it's you ... people are going to sue you. People are going to come after you with lawsuits. People are going, and I kind of wished that I had been, you know, told years ago, you're going to need to know some of this stuff, it won't be pleasant. But, so I think sometimes the ... just, the rudimentary skills of lawyering would be I think something that I wished that ... I think more executives were kind of wrapped around that, because it will be there at some point. It's kind of the nature of the beast, you know? But you know, those are things that I ... managing people I think is something that mentoring would play an enormous role in. But if I had to really pick one, I would probably say creating a company culture that is inclusive and makes people feel valued.
JIll:You know, to have some law background in case you made a poor hiring decision and the people don't fit. And those are the people that are going to sue you.
David:Jill, I could give you about five examples.
JIll:My background is HR.
David:Oh. So, well then you know. You know exactly what I'm talking about. It will happen, or you will be sued for a trademark violation, or you will be ... whatever it is. I just ... I've learned a lot now just because I've been through it. But boy, if I could go back and do just two good solid, basic law, basic case law, basic you know, it would have been very helpful to me. So I think that if I were to say, "Gee, what didn't I get mentored in, what would I have loved to have had more experience and more exposure to?" It probably would be those two things. You know, building the culture and knowing what to do when the summons is served. Seems so silly, but it's true. It's who ... It's the way business runs.
JIll:Well that's why you hire good people.
David:Mm-hmm (affirmative), people you trust and ...
JIll:Right. Or people who are knowledgeable where you aren't. That's why you hire a super HR manager and you have an attorney on retainer.
David:Yup. Oh, believe me, I do.
JIll:Yeah, yeah. Fair enough.
David:But even to understand what the attorneys are talking about sometimes is a challenge, you know, I mean there's a certain ... and then once you've been down that path a couple of times, it gets ... it makes much more sense. But boy, it's overwhelming when you're at the same time trying to run your company, you're trying to grow your business. And then just some of the distractions can be pretty major, you know, things like lawsuits and that kind of thing, or HR issues or, you know, things like that, so.
JIll:So, the last question kind of ties into that and we may have already discussed it, but if you were to write a book, what would be your key message for these same executives that you're speaking to in the previous question? To be able to achieve your level of success?
David:Huh. Well, I mean, if I were talking to executives it would probably be what we just discussed, the company culture, the keep managing your people, hiring the right mix of people, keeping your finger on the pulse of all that. If I were talking to maybe a younger generation who were starting into the management and into the ... into business. You know, I always think, you know, listening is one of the most important things that you can do. We all talk a lot, but do we really listen all the time? And I think it's a learned skill to actually kind of hear what people are talking about, to really kind of, you know, register what we're really, really saying. And I think that's sometimes something that we don't do very well.
David:And then, we talked earlier about hard work and paying your dues and all of that will ... I don't know of a single successful executive, CEO, president, who hasn't worked very, very hard, who hasn't sacrificed, and you know, try to keep balanced between your private life and your working life. But you know, there will be, it's a lot. It's not ... it's you're going to check your ego at the door. You're going to work way more hours than you thought you were going to. And you know, you're going to ... in the long haul you're also going to need to get lucky a little bit. Because some of it is just being right place, right time, and having the smarts and the listening skills to know that you're in the right place at the right time.
David:I look back at ... this is my start in all of this, and I did not leave art school thinking I was going to be a businessman. I knew I would be creative in my life, but I look back and I think, well what if I met Joan and I didn't like her, and I just decided to stay working in film and working in theater, and would have had a very different life. I would still be very happy. But I saw something, and I saw that I saw something new. And I loved the idea of being in a business that was kind of not too traditional, you know ... an art director, costume designer and a comedian start a fashion house, kind of odd.
David:But it was also the opportunity to kind of make your own rules sometimes, you know, not take no for an answer. Because we didn't know you could say no. You know, it was almost like we were novices, but at the same time I think we both had a certain amount of smarts, and talent, and drive. So you know, that to me was ... it is kind of twist of fate but ... and right time, right place. Sometimes it's that as well. Kind of a combination of everything, isn't it? If you really think about it, it's ... you have to have the chops, you have to have the ethics, the work hard, and you have to be in the right place at the right time. It sounds so silly, but I do believe that ...
JIll:It is true. And the key is, knowing that you're in the right place at the right time.
David:Recognizing, yes, recognizing it, you're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. It's like a ... can you see beyond the fact that I've just had to work through Thanksgiving and I'm going to be working Christmas Eve, and I'm going to be working New Year's Day, because that's the nature of what we do. Can you see beyond that to say, "I'm going to build this to a level where there will be a Thanksgiving that I have to work. There will be something I can sit back and feel very proud of. And if you don't see it, if you don't recognize it, then you know it's going to be ... it's going to be very different. So there's ... I guess it's a lot. It's really when it comes down to it, it's timing. It's skills certainly. It's wanting to commit and work hard and sacrifice and listen, there's many a time where I thought, I don't want to be doing this right now. I'm on my weekend. I'd like to go ... I don't golf, but I'd like to go golf.
David:And you can't, because you're building something, and you're committed to something. And that's, a lot of people maybe don't want that bad enough, you know?
JIll:True. But we can say this sitting here at whatever age we are. Yes, it's one of those ... if I knew then what I knew now kind of things.
David:Right. That's true. That's true.
JIll:Do I sound like my dad.
David:Well or can't ... If I ... what the mentoring process can be though is, I can tell you what I know now and let you know when you need to know it, not learn it 25 years from now.
David:And that kind of ... kind of this young man that I mentored from Pennsylvania who's now, as I said, working for Calvin Klein. It was a ... I wish I had somebody that said to me, "Don't apply there. That's not the place you need to be. If you're interested in the business of fashion, you need to be here. That's the school for designers. You don't need to go to Parsons, you need to go here because this is what they ..." And you know what, it really was guiding him into choices that turned out to be the right ones. And on your own sometimes, you wouldn't make the right choice. So the mentoring piece is very important. It's very ... it's about how you can help people be way more successful than they might be.
JIll:Well, he's lucky to have had you, and he's lucky that he actually listened. There is ...
David:And also, if he wasn't a smart kid, I probably wouldn't have taken as much interest in you know what I mean? Like you can ... sometimes you meet somebody, you think, okay, this guy is smart, or this woman kind of really gets it. We have a young girl working here now who I said to Susan the other day, "You know, she's going to take your job one day. She's smart, and that's what you want." You know what I'm mean? You know, and then you have that bench strength to say, "Okay, right now she's 26 and she's a junior player here. But I can see such potential." And you know, we've had a series of employees here that have gone from ... one girl who was a senior, a really senior player, a VP here when she left, she came in as a temp. But you know, smart is smart, and hard work is hard work. So it's ... you ... when you see it, you want to help it, you want to push it forward to be successful. I think.
JIll:That's true. I agree. I concur. So, well, we're at the end.
David:Oh wow. That was a lot of fun, and I hope I didn't talk too much.
JIll:No, but I am going to make an appointment to come to your house in Pennsylvania and listen to those stories that can go on for hours. That you alluded to.
David:Well you don't want to come now, because I'm renovating the whole place because it's really becoming more of a full time house for me. So I'm living in a little tiny bedroom with a microwave oven and with a tiny dorm room refrigerator. So it's not cute right.
JIll:Okay, then I'm not coming.
David:Down the road, down the road. That took money.
JIll:My people will talk to your people and we'll figure out something in the future.
David:There you go. There you go. Well I look forward to seeing this and I look forward to the podcast and all of that. And it will be fun to follow this.
JIll:Well, we will keep you posted as it progresses and the book itself will come out probably November-ish.
David:Oh wow, that soon. That's amazing, that's amazing.
David:Well if you need follow-up Jill, if you need to do more of this or whatever you need to do to make this effective in what you guys were looking for. Just you know, reach out to Susan. She can find me anywhere, anytime. So if you ... if we need to do you know, another chat through or whatever you need, just let me know. Because I'd love to ... I loved doing this and I also am thrilled to be part of this next book. That's exciting.
JIll:Oh, thank you so much David, and we will keep you posted. And then [inaudible 00:37:38].
David:Okay, fantastic. Well, you know how to find me, Susan Gibson. All right Jill. Well have a good one, have a nice one.
JIll:Thank you, thank you, you too.
David:Thanks. Talk soon. Bye. Bye.